Chatlog of Aug 18, 2007

In the chat room

Malini

Govind

Susan

Imran S

Ajit Sesh

Somnathsr

Greencircle

Chaitanya

Susan  Welcome to IWC chat on " Disappearing Tigers: Taking Stock" 

Govind  Hello! 

Malini  hi susan, govind 

Govind  Hi Malini! 

Govind  Where are u from?

Malini  i live in blore am born bred and buttered here 

Malini  did u guys get to read my story on leopards thriving in sariska 

Govind  Oh...nice!! 

Malini  http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38933 

Malini  i'd like some feedback before we start chatting 

Govind  No..not really..would love to have a read. So far, have only read Ghazala Ma'm's work regarding Sariska 

Malini  do tell me more abt that and gimme a link if u can

Govind  I have th pdf in my hard disk...will mail it to you...meanwhile..reading th link u provided.

Malini  wonder what it takes from all of us to revive the tiger 

Govind  A lot i guess...more awareness and more field work I'd say....do go through a paper by Ghazala ma'm and Mahesh Rangarajan that got published in a banglaore based

conservation and society publication 

Malini  not entirely; awareness is only for those who are converted 

Malini  i mean 

Govind  "But putting a number on leopards will remain in the realm of speculation because there has never been a leopard census in India within or outside the protected areas." That is SO SO very true....and needed 

Malini  thanks for ur comments 

somnathsr  My name is Somnath..I am an Architect ...working at AbuDhabi UAE...very much interested about wildlife / tiger protection etc.. 

Govind  Also...after reading this..... 

Govind  My research shows that where prey in different size classes are abundant, tigers and leopards focus on different prey types thus facilitating their coexistence … another essential element is availability of trees that leopards can climb to escape from tigers 

Govind  I think "total area" is an even more important factor that will determine the co-existence of the two cats...simply because home ranges and territory seldom coincide 

Govind  Hello somnathsr 

Malini  ah well 

Malini  i shd switch off my cell phone hold on guys 

somnathsr  Hi...continue your chat.....I will learn... 

Govind  "Unlike the tiger, the leopard is a major coward. The sight of anything other than wildlife sends it pell-mell." 

Malini  govind u seem to be annotating my whole article 

Govind  Not really....u can hear of n number of cases...in Uttarakhand...where the leopard enters the village in the night...and pulls away children 

Govind  sorry!!...was jus giving my feedback! 

Malini  ah well i am sorry to have disappeared 

Malini  technical error 

Susan  Sorry folks, seems to have had some problem 

Malini  i think we still need administrative streamlining, 

imran_s  HI All 

Malini judicial will, 

Malini  hi imran welcome onboard 

ajitsesh  hi, i am ajit seshadri of the vigaynvijay foundation Ngo,, hi to all 

Malini  hi ajith welcome 

somnathsr  Hi Imran..nice to see you 

imran_s  I agree with u Govind 

imran_s  That leopard Tiger and Even Dholes seldom come into conflict 

imran_s  But in areas where prey base is less they tend to compete directly 

Malini  more than 2 carnivores dont survive in the same space 

imran_s  Leopards move to fringes and degraded habitats 

Malini  more than 2 carnivores dont survive in the same space- remember the shot of  crocodile dashing with tiger in Ranthambore tiger reserve some years ago  

imran_s  I dont think so malini, 

imran_s  By the way I am imran presently in Dubai 

imran_s  WE work in Kawal WLS of Andhra 

Malini  i am at home in front of my computer in Bangalore! 

imran_s  for past 6 years, i am a GIS professional and 

imran_s  Ok lets focus to today’s topic "Taking stock of Tigers" 

Malini  great I would like to touch base with you 

ajitsesh  i agree with malini one the 2 carnivore funda.. ,, ecology permits this in harmony...

imran_s  No not exactly on same place but they live quite closely, within each others home ranges 

imran_s  check for Wild dogs in forest they move around all forest from every possible places of their territory,, Tigers exist so does Leopard in those areas   

ajitsesh  hi again to all, lets talk with expert to build the numbers on tigers... how can this be done.. 

Malini  Also, gooda male tiger barely 2 kilometres away from the leopard whose picture is on that article there 

imran_s  Sure 

imran_s  I feel suddenly we have forgot the Reserve forest area outside sanctuaries in present estimates 

Govind  me back :) 

imran_s  and we count tigers mainly in Tiger reserves 

imran_s  I strongly feel 30% of tigers still exist in Forest outside Sanctuaries and reserves 

Malini  hey guys i am typing so much but very little is coming  right

Govind  @Malini: have mailed u the paper by Ghazla Shahbuddin on Sariska 

Malini  cant say 30% 

Govind  Hi Imran..... 

imran_s  But substantial amount i feel 

Susan  Malini, pl. type one line at a time. 

imran_s  Hi govind 

Govind  Hello Mr. ajitsesh...are youth one from VigyanVijay who was at the EEJP foundation in Jan this year...and later on at th Yamuna Biodiv Park? 

Malini  i am typing only 1 line at once 

imran_s  If we consider large tracts of forest of Tamil Nadu, Orissa, AP, North east 

ajitsesh  malini,, just off the record tell us when will we sight the last tiger!! just joking how serious is the problem!!!   

Govind  Hello Susan..!!! 

imran_s  See we need a collaborated effort 

Malini  we do have a serious problem no doubt 

Govind  ...and what is the most recent status of tigers in India...jus how many are there left? 

Malini  1973 when project tiger was launched 

imran_s  WII, WCS, Forest Depts, Project TIger, And Major NGOs + grassroot NGOs should join hands for a massive Census all over India at one given time 

Malini  the rajasthan pccf told me recently that 

Govind  how many now..at present? 

Malini  the rajasthan pccf told me recently that 27 

imran_s  It does not matter if 1300 or 1500 present now 

somnathsr  starting 1973 with 1300 & back to 1300 again after so many years at 2007...net result = 0 

Malini  susan there is a technical hitch 

Govind  gud god..thats shocking!!! 

imran_s  How many tigers are under control(for Protection) and how many habitats are linked are Sustainable that is the big Question 

imran_s  Malini, 27 left where?? 

Govind  at the same tiem....would like to know....why is Madam Sunita Narain the NGO head of the Project Tiger..I mean why wud they make a lady...that can hardly tell a tiger apart from ny other cat...the 'head' of Project Tiger??? 

Malini  i was trying to say 1827 

somnathsr  Ranthambore ? 

imran_s  starting 1973 with 1300 & back to 1300 again after so many years at 2007...net result = 0 BUT POINT HERE IS we still managed to have 1200 Tigers or so 

Malini  i cannot comment on why sunita narain was made the head 

Govind  oh..1827...thats a reliever!! 

Malini  perhaps there was a vested interest

imran_s  Ok 

Malini  that someone more interested in development would undercut the importance to 

Govind  hmm...so shouldnt that vested interest be reported...i mean this is not jus any other things...saving tigers....means saving the forests. 

ajitsesh  hi govind let us get to some + ve talking from malini... what is the first step to preserve tigers... 

Govind  yup..righto Mr. Ajit!

imran_s  Yeah malini 

Malini  we were attending a workshop for environmental journalists 

imran_s  how do we take stock of the tigers now 

Malini  is there a limit to text entry per line here? 

Govind  I mean...what really wud be the 'first' step we need to take to ensure tiger conservation

somnathsr  a very strong political will + force + fund ++++ can only save

Malini  not so simple somnath   

imran_s  I believe the work should come form Down to top 

Malini  apart from political judicial, financial and administrative will 

somnathsr  I know but still we have to try & find the way 

ajitsesh  hi malini,, tigers in most of our jungles/ sanctuaries are fragile why ,,, how and where else can we preserve them with care... 

Malini  we need a tightening of markets   

Govind  down to top? What wud down here be? 

imran_s  Top-down have failed

Malini  we should ensure that the jungles in which they live are well protected 

imran_s  It is like we need micro level plans to protect each habitat of tigers, Numbers will grow, dont worry about it  

Govind  and how do we do that?

Malini  yes top down has failed largely because of abdication of policing / criminal investigative responsibility 

Govind  hmmm..dat way! 

imran_s  Real protectors are the forest department, But they are demotivated set 

Malini  to put it simply we need to relocate the impoverished villagers inside and on the forest fringes

Malini  flog their demotivation 

Malini  they are public servants  

imran_s  So we need to bring them into driving seat of conservation battle 

Malini  and the tigers or wildlife / biodiversity is not our property,   

Govind  Relocate villagers...where? 

imran_s  Nagarhole shows a classic example with chinnappa leading 

Malini  we need to relocate them to demarcated revenue lands where nothing grows... 

imran_s  Relocation is again a Big time work a long term plan..But short term plan should be immediate control over Tiger habitats 

Malini  fallow lands for people to live in with infrastructure and urban / civilised facilities 

imran_s  do u agree with me Malini 

Govind  so...if nothing grows there...how do they survive themselves? 

Malini  they can take up employment 

Govind  so basically...we make villages....convert to urban beings/?? is that so?

Malini  we need a study that can establish authentically 

imran_s  True, But I feel immediate action plan should be Rapid Action Assessment of Tigers in each state 

Malini  yes imran 

Malini  we also need to establish 

imran_s  It should not be Tiger counting But also Taking into consideration other indices like Disturbance, Local poaching customs, Protection levels etc 

Malini  to what extent people are dependent on forest produce 

imran_s  See solution for Indian tigers cannot be seen at all in the way Siberian tigers are saved 

ajitsesh  yes,, can IWC forum make some good suggestions to start with.. malini can take the lead to say and compile some guide lines... can we get valmik thapar to add his inputs and send to say ... ... planning commission montek singh ahluwalia etc...

Malini  tiger counting is the yardstick to measure habitat protection 

imran_s  There the threat is some poachers and not all the villagers or People like S*** Narain 

Malini  that is why tiger annihilation was such a shock 

imran_s  Yes Ajit 

imran_s  Even Model of Karnataka wont work in Rajastan or Rajastan success similar to Andhra problems 

Malini  but i strongly feel it is time for us to quantify the market for tcm(traditional Chinese markets) outlets...

Malini  tcm products 

Malini  then we'l know the demand  

Malini  regardless of the region, 

chaitanya  hello every one 

Malini  everywhere we have similar problems 

imran_s  So hear local NGOs under guidance of Bigger NGOS together with Forest Dept should assess forest and have a plan for each forest 

Malini  hi chaitanya welcome 

chaitanya  hello Maam

imran_s  Probelms are similar but very localized like Naxal in AP, Chattisgarh etc.. 

chaitanya  tnks 

Malini  imran there are plans of relocation everywhere but they are all stuck in bureaucratic quagmire

Malini  because till the lands are identified for people to relocate and settle 

imran_s  See we need a huge programme to assess habitat and issues to arrive to some sort of conservation strategy 

Govind  say...what would be the most significant threat to the tiger population...if one wants to rate? 

Malini  forests cannot be pristine 

chaitanya  maam,

imran_s  Ok wherever possible we shud start working on that 

Malini  hold on ... 

ajitsesh  hi, i am a water shed planner/environmental solution provider...i can volunteer for any help... for tiger !! 

imran_s  Girish, Niren Jain, Praveen showed us way in Bhadra 

Malini  chaitanya tell me pls... 

chaitanya  but they just remain on papers 

Malini  sure girish is the hero for relocation 

Malini  but u see he had administrative support in karnataka

imran_s  SO we need to take up his model 

Malini  karnataka govt had demarcated lands for relocation 

chaitanya  'cz I have been to sariska 

Malini  in rajasthan or for that matter in most other states up North 

imran_s  But it will take time   

Malini  we do not have lands demarcated 

chaitanya  what about the situation there now? 

Malini  How long? its been 60 years since independence

Malini  forest dept has earmarked its lands   

imran_s  as burocracy or Politics are involved 

Malini  the revenue pockets are yet to be identified 

imran_s  see we need to catalyze relocation,,,,But before it there shud be plan to stop tiger poisoning 

Malini  there is a division called survey and demarcation in every forest department 

Malini  they have drawn maps and demarcated forest lands from revenue lands 

greencircle  hi i have just come! tiger count is a bogus exercise in India, I had been a part of the team i feel that it should be done by independent organisations who can give correct picture 

Malini  transferring those revenue lands inside forests to the forest department 

chaitanya  yes green

imran_s  see, Relocation is key But before it we need to get understanding of Tigers in Different regions

ajitsesh  hi, malini , there is diversity in tigers also... a bengal tiger is different from a deccan one...can we pinpoint which region-tigers have survived more... 

Malini  and identifying the ersatz land for that outside the forests calls for political will 

chaitanya  i agree with you

Malini  where is the need to understand tigers? 

chaitanya  but there are certain reasons for showing pink pictures 

Govind  @greencircle: with due respect. if u were a part of it....u shud ve done something about it.....at the very time the count was being done!!? 

imran_s  In known places like Corbett, Ranthambore Tadoba etc... where some protection is there relocation is on cards and it should be done in quick pace 

Malini  let us await the WII scientific tiger count results by December 

chaitanya  they are getting grants from central govt. and abroad ,too

Malini  it will be a political earthquake 

imran_s  But see if political will doesnt come in next 20 years also 

Malini  i wd trust only the wii to do a credible job of tiger count 

imran_s  shall we wait for it, All govts have same agendas and no one is willing 

imran_s  we need to advocate political will but at the same time protect what tigers we have 

imran_s  See malini, i mean not counting the potential of habitat is the key 

Malini  not as long as we have people centric and tiger detrimental voices ...unfortunately the tiger lacks a voice and a vote 

greencircle  i walked for hours together in the western ghats bt could nt trace any tiger or even pugmarks ! Ranger who accompanied me begged to mention at least 2 tigers in my report, i didn't budge that's anther story 

imran_s  See ther is one Tiger reserve in AP which holds 20(Forest dept says 45) 

chaitanya  Imran, 

imran_s  but other forests hold 20-30 tigers easily   

Govind  o..dats is nice to know...others jus mention a tiger or two more than they are asked to show! 

chaitanya  Imran, there are many reasons 

chaitanya  they wanna show their work

chaitanya  and also need more funds 

imran_s  Agreed 

imran_s  same in our forest in AP Adilabad... 

imran_s  tigers fallen sharply in most of its ranges 

Malini  u cannot see a tiger pugmark by walking for hours together or stretches of kilometres 

imran_s  from 14 to 4-5 now  

chaitanya  the same thing happens with every count

imran_s  very sad it is indeed

greencircle  i agree with u i at my level wrote in our magazines but i could not do anything more, 

Malini  I have been to the forests about 450 times but i have sighted only 9 tigers so far   

imran_s  But it is very important that we go into details of where tigers have gone 

chaitanya  and it is the main reason , why forest ppl want to keep ngos away 

ajitsesh  hi all we all have + interest and have devoted 8X1=8 hours on this vital issue how can we make it happen // conserve sanctuaries as apt abodes for Indian tiger.. 

Malini  how many tigers do u have in AP?

Govind  next time,,,just drop in a letter to Projet Tiger with a CC to the MoEF! 

imran_s  Each area will have its own problems 

Malini  u think they wd care?

imran_s  40-50 at max(Forest dept swears 100) 

imran_s  I agree with Malini 

Malini  they live in a world of make believe

imran_s  They way out to me is Make a Group Adopt one potential tiger area 

Malini  tiger numbers became a method of holding forest officers to account   

Malini  very good idea imran 

chaitanya  some reports says that there may be 800-900 tigers now in India 

Malini  but it is not so easy 

imran_s  and find reasons for tiger decline(if any) and work to minimize pressure 

imran_s  It is not easy needs dedication  

Malini  we should not entrust public inheritance to private interests 

imran_s  see u can bring in Wildlife first or WPSI into ur park as we can network with outside world 

imran_s  Plus we should motivate forest staff, 

Malini  yes chaitanya might be eerily near the truth 

greencircle  what happened in Sariska is just a lesson for all of us. we should all come together to give a realistic picture about the status of Indian tiger population. It is possible if we come together Can Indian wildlife club do something in this direction 

Malini  imran i agree with u abt motivation, but I wd not do it 

chaitanya  and forest figures tell they are 5000 

Malini  hi greencircle 

imran_s  Plus we should plan 100's of trip, Transacts, Camera traps etc... to get idea of things 

chaitanya  Imran, forest ppl know every thing 

Susan  IndianWildlifeClub is all of us, our only asset is the members!

Malini  i wl do anything at all...whatever it takes to revive the tiger

chaitanya  they r very much clear abt all the things 

imran_s  But Malini, they are actually supposed to do all this 

Govind  Cant there be an independent enquiry on the Forest Dept's Figures......also... 

chaitanya  but....there hands are bound by officials and politicians  

Govind  what exactly is the role of Project Tiger plz? 

Susan  Malini, can you sum up, we need to close the chat room soon.

Malini  yes the foresters know everything but turn a blind eye to poaching complaints like it happened in sariska 

Malini  sure   

imran_s  See there should be a breakeven point where we expose forest depts negligence etc.. 

imran_s  But had there been  an NGO working for tigers story woudl b\have been different 

chaitanya  hi susan mam...

Malini  there seems to be a lot of energy for conserving the tiger at all costs, i will touch base with all of you if you 

chaitanya  thnks every one   

ajitsesh  hi, susan , malini ,, pl say something to sum up this purposeful chat,,,, we are with you as always ... 

 imran_s  See we cannot wait until forest dept wakes up or Political will comes out 

Malini  and make a newsletter

Malini  i do have an agenda susan i will get in touch with you 

imran_s  yeah, Network, Bring people who can actually protect.....+ work on Girishs model of relocation 

Malini  let us do something concrete

chaitanya  bye every one and hope..our jungles will again will be filled with the roars of the royal animal 

chaitanya  Maliniji, I am ready to have your guidance 

Susan  Thanks all of you! I see pent-up feelings for the tiger coming out from all of us. Send in your suggestions on what we can do. 

chaitanya  how can we help guide us please 

Malini  let us propose some concrete action, i have crystal clear agenda 

imran_s  See Email Activism wont help tigers much.. they need us at field 

Malini  let us make a newsletter 

chaitanya  and I am ready 

Malini  imran is right 

imran_s  Sure but unless we get onto field it wont work 

greencircle  u r welcome 

Malini  my cell phone # is 0944 805 5645 

imran_s  I am planning to return to India in Dec first week, 9 months of conservation work with Girish model of relocation 

imran_s  Kawal is the sanctuary which we adopt,,

imran_s  Thanx a lot susan 

Malini  get in touch lets do smthg serious 

ajitsesh  hi all , on watershed work i am with you all 

imran_s  Susan thank you very much and Great speaking to u all Malini thanks alot 

chaitanya  can I talk to you on phone and then join the movement Maliniji?   

Malini  susan i summed up thrice but it is not uploading ! 

Govind  Thanks to Malini, Susan and everyone! 

somnathsr  Thank you all 

Malini  ajith i have written abt watershed  

Susan  We will publish the chat transcript online. Hope it reaches as many people as possible. 

chaitanya  thnks  

Malini  pls do call me chaitanya 

imran_s  Malini wil be waiting for ur agenda,

Malini  wll mail it to u 

Susan  Thank you all. see you same time same day, next month! 

imran_s  thanx lot all of u bye

ajitsesh  hi susan malini's summation is important pl get it on line ... afterwards.... 

Malini  thank u for tuning in all of u  

imran_s  imran.siddiqui80@gmail.com 

Malini  thank you for your suggestions 

imran_s  bye  

Malini  thank you all for joining the debate, we must synergise the goodwill and enthusiasm for tiger conservation. ciao